Radical honesty with Jerry Colonna

JerryColonna - 6:2:21, 12.00 PM

SPEAKERS

Speaker 3 (57%),

Shelley (31%),

Chad (9%)

Welcome to the big self podcast. I'm your host, Chad Prevost, and on this week's episode, we have a real treat for you. Jerry colonna is a professional coach, known for his unique teachings on entrepreneurship and business psychology. He's the co founder and CEO of the executive coaching and leadership development company reboot, and is the host of the reboot podcast. By the way, if you're looking for another great one, among other things, pe teaches leaders to embrace extreme challenges as opposed to avoiding them, and to take time to discover the self through introspection. And in this episode, you get a clear picture of how Jerry coaches his concept of radical inquiry, and he offers his insights into how to do more while maintaining the practice of remaining your authentic self. We've been fans of Jerry for a long time, and we're really proud to have him on this week's episode.

I want to just welcome you, Jerry, I have you know, this I, gosh, for many years have listened to you followed your work, read your stuff. I think I'm gonna cry.

Be strong? Well, I remember I will say this briefly, while she's re composing herself here. It was not long, it was around the time where your company was flaming out. And you were you were in deep burnout, and that you discovered his book, Jerry's book, I think your book had just come out to just come out. And and since then, you know, you've also shared it with me. And, and I mean, there are so many, you have so many great questions that you have at pose at the end of each and every chapter. There, there are many rich directions in which we can go in this, you know, podcast on calling.

Let me just say this, though, because your influence in my life predates even that. So we met really briefly. I don't even remember what year it was, at a wisdom 2.0 conference. In New York, it was very briefly, I think you were coming in. And then you had to bolt out. But I had just joined this venture capital incubator, as the director of happiness. And I felt so alone, I was like, What am I walking into? Who are these people? And how do I help them. And I remember just feeling very isolated and alone, and excuse me, found your work and heard your story. And I was like, that's kind of the, the North Star came that for me. Like, that's how I can do this work in the way I want to do it with these type of people. Because it was a very alien land for me. So you have mentored me and influenced me in ways that I could never say thank you enough.

Well, thank you. That's quite an introduction. Let me let me say a couple of quick things. First of all, I welcome your tear and show that it's an expression of love. And it there's nothing wrong with them. It's an expression of happiness and an odd way. And to, to imagine that the work that I do has had an influence and a support for someone that I know from afar, is a gift. And And lastly, I would say, I, I think I can empathize with the feeling of finally being able to have a conversation that you've wanted to have live with someone whose work you admire. It's a it's a really powerful feeling. And I respect and honor that. And I will hold in my heart as we have this conversation. All of the people whom I speak up and think of in those ways, because we're all part of a lineage, we're all part of a sharing. And I think it's important that we recognize them in this moment.

Thank you for that. So I I want to share with our listeners your story, I would love for you. There's so much goodness in it. I know you've had your own kind of crucible moments is the way I think of it. And so even a few Yeah, if you could just take us back and share just how your own reboot that you went through and maybe you're still going Through and and just let us know where you are now with it.

Well, I like that little addendum that you put on the question, which was maybe still going through, because I really appreciate that. Because I think implicit in that is a recognition that these processes they feel like aberrations. When in fact, it's actually life unfolding, as opposed to I think the story and the piece that you're thinking about, and then when I recognize that there's a leaf blower outside, I honor and recognize a lot of things.

And I find that very helpful. As our dogs getting outside, it's just like, you know,

I like perspective because yeah, we're fingers crossed that our next door neighbor will start mowing his lawn as well.

Yeah, you know, this is life in the pandemic, what do we do? So, I think the story that you're referring to Celli is what happened to me in my 30s. Is that right? That's right. Yeah. So, um, to put some context into it. And I'll use a little Yiddish now. I was a mock, which is a good term, which means I'm a big guy. I was. I was, I was like an influencer. I was, what I was, was a venture capitalist in New York. And I was part of the emerging new york tech scene. And my partner, Fred and I, Fred Wilson is a fairly well known venture capitalists now had built a small firm in New York, and it had taken off like a rocket ship, and it was very successful. And we'd started that when I was turning 30. And by 37, and 38 years old, a lot of things in my soul, which I had ignored, had begun catching up to me. And so on the one hand, as I often describe it, the external life that I was living, was not mapping to my internal life. And so that was living with an incongruity between the inner and the outer. But I was also finally coming to confront structures of my life and belief systems and just the adverse childhood experiences I had had. And it was all coming together in the same moment, in advance of turning 40, which is this magical moment of complete and utter disruption. And so the result was at 38, I became depressed and suicidal, which is they often point out was particularly dangerous, because I had already attempted suicide at 18. And so, having that reemerge statistically is those who study such things know that those who've attempted ones are likely to succeed a second time. And so it was a serious moment in time that called for, in hindsight, a complete reboot of who I was and how I was living my life. I'll fast forward to the end. Thank goodness that happened. Because I am the man I am today because of the decision I made not to kill myself. So that's the reboot. I think you were referring here.

So I don't know if you're about to ask a question because I want to jump I because I I've listened to your podcast a lot. And in it and for people that don't know I would strongly encourage them to go check out the reboot podcast. So it's clear to me listening to you and I think I've even tweeted this or said this to you. This is it appears to me that this is His work you were called to do, that it is so comes from this deep place in you. It's it's, it seems effortless. I think there's this, there's this real expression of something soulful when you when I hear you coaching these people, so um, you know, hearing your reboot story and what you went through and seeing the work you do now. I'm really curious how and how does you connect those dots in your own heart in mind? Like how was your calling unfolding for you? Even in the midst of gore? Could you even see it in the midst of going through all that in your 30s? And 40s? Because it seems so apparent now? Or is it something that just had to evolve? Because it seems clear? Well, it feels clear. Okay. No, it

does. And, and, and, and to me, Well, first of all, thank you for recognizing that. It's, again, gratifying to think that that that comes through calls to mind. And something that happened to me a few years ago, I was doing a speaking event. And I was waiting to go up on stage. And there was a little buffet line where people were getting drinks and snacks and things like that. So I got online to get some lemonade. And there was a fellow in front of me and I leaned into him and I made a joke. I said, I hear this guy, Jerry colonna, I hear that his voice puts you to sleep. And he turned around and he laughed. And then he looked, and he saw that I had a name tag on and he said, Wait, you're Jerry Jones. And so we laughed, and he said, You're the same person that you are in the podcast. And I said, Yes, I am. Which to me felt like a tremendous compliment. And I think that the reason that that story pops into my head is because whether it's the podcast or being CEO, reboot, or coaching a client or doing a talk at some event, one of the most important lessons I took from that period of my life in my 30s was that I have to be the same in inside as I am outside, I have to be the same. Because when I'm not, I am miserable.

Now, I'll connect us to calling. So as you know, the word vocation comes from the Latin. We'll call it a calling. And we often apply vocation as a word to two different structures. We talk about vocational training school when someone goes and becomes an electrician.

But when we talk about ministry, when we talk about spirituality, we often will use the word vocation. And I think it's really what you're seeing is someone who has lived into his vocation, the calling from the divine, the thing that I was meant to do, the person that I am meant to be.

Now, we have to be careful when we think about vocation.

Because like a lot of human beings, I am wired to think that when I achieved contentment, that it should be frozen in amber for all time, and it should be just this. But if I were to think of vocation that way, then I would then then I would say, well, I've got a podcast and I've got a few coaching clients. And so that's it, I'm done. But in fact, it's more dynamic than that. So you enjoyed my book. The book is an expression of vocation. I'm now hard at work on my next book. The next book is an expression of my vocation. And so by taking this approach 10 years from now, when I'm 67 I may or may not have coaching clients, but I am always going to be living into my vocation

because the form mate Change. But the function remains the same. Which is an inner and outer of alignment on topics that matter.

Can you talk a little bit about how you got there? Because I'm just you know, and I think for me, it took failure. It took what I'm coming to talk about a little bit as a shock point in my life, to waking up to some of some of these ideas you're talking about, but I'm curious for you to, to get to the place where who you are kind of just flows out of what you do. How did you get there from suicidal thoughts? Like that's quite a journey that you've been on?

I'll respond to that question. But let me ask you a favor first.

Sure.

You've asked this question two or three different ways. Why is this question so important to you?

I'm thinking what just popped up into my head was normalizing. There's something more there's because I think the this path, this kind of bringing integrity into the world are trying to like, what, what you're talking about the inner to meet the outer was such a hard road to hoe. And I think a part of me is like, is this worth it?

Yeah. So you're going to indulge me a little bit more with one more set of questions. Okay. So there's a voice in your head that says, Is this worth it? Is that right?

Yeah. And what else is that voice saying to you? What's the sacrifice? Like, I have this North Star like, of course, it's worth it. That's the gold. That's how I want to live.

And there's a but in there. Now, there's two voices. One Voice is is of course, that's the North Star and then there's a big honkin loud, which is what's the

fear? It's ego. It's Yeah, let's not label it. What do we say? Right there stay in that spot.

I'm trying to be really gentle with it.

won't blow some kisses to you know, from my work, but that's just a protective voice. Yeah. It's a little harsh, though.

Absolutely. And I think that with them voice for me is you could do all this work, and still not fit in. Wow. Which is why I just loved what you're doing because I see you as so full of integrity. And you've at least from the outside looking in seem to fit in to that. Very Sharky.

Yeah, yeah, yeah. So we're going to stay in that. Notice the tension point here. If I live in the pursuit of that North Star, if I live with the integrity that I see those I admire living then I'm going to be that weird duck that doesn't fit in. I'm not going to belong. Yeah. Yeah. Okay. And that's an old feeling, isn't it?

Absolutely. And it sucks. really sucks. Not, you know. And so there's, I've, you know, like many of us, I've lived a lot of my life. I figuring out which masks helped me. And so lay all those down and just be Shelly is Even when we talk about this, you know, it's just it's there's threat in it.

Right? And so the bot the voice that says the bot, but fill in the blank, right? Look at all the risks. That voice is protecting you from the perceived threat of what will happen to Shelly if the mask gets dropped. Okay. Thank you voice might even give it a name. Bertha. Thank you very much. I really appreciate it. Because she loves you. Even in her harshness Yeah. So I have not lost sight of the fact that you really asked me how I got there. And I'm gonna go back to that. So the path in the pathless path, this wandering from moving from side to side, and where do i do and how do I go? The path the North Star isn't actually outside. The North Star is to quote Tara Brock for a moment is a kind of radical acceptance of the totality of who I am, including the masses that I am. Including the voice of birth. Or as my teacher Sharon Salzberg, calls her voice Lucy, like the peanuts character. Right? The acceptance of that voice and the understanding that that voice is there to protect us. In our wish to belong, our wish to be loved, or wish to feel safe, right? week cannot to put it a different way. We cannot live in the way that you are seeing me live. If we're going to reject a part of ourselves, including the inner critic, including the Lucy. I mean, this may be the mind blowing piece. It's like, wait, I actually have to accept all the parts of me that every self help books tells me I should ignore.

Yeah, so you should listen to your inner critic. You're saying no, you should love your inner critic is

but tell it. Thank you very much, but I got this. I really appreciate you're trying to take care of me.

But just like when I was a little kid, your perceptions of the world are out of date. Mom's not gonna hurt me. Dad's not gonna hurt me. The kids are not middle school anymore. The kids aren't going to taunt me. I am not a loser. Say it. Say it with me loud and proud. I am not a loser. I am. I am not a failure just because I have failed. Right? To have. Yeah,

that's a good, that's a hard one. But that's a good one.

a really hard one. Right? Yeah. And so all of a sudden, when we love that inner critic, we're in relationship with a part of ourselves. And then the inner critic goes, Okay, I don't have to speak so loud anymore. There's a great movie called The beautiful nine with them. It was about the life of john Nash. And if you remember, he was mentally ill. And at the very end of the movie, he's won, I think the Nobel Prize. And someone comes up to him and says, You seem so much better. I imagine you don't hear those voices in your head anymore. And he says, Oh, I still hear them. I just choose to ignore them. Or choose not to listen, Dr.

Huh.

What? You want to go ahead? Well,

I'm, I am connecting this. Back to calling because I I like what you're saying what you said earlier because I do we get wrapped up in this idea of calling. Like, what am I called to do? And I really, yeah, I think that's a limited way of thinking about it. I'll just say that So this, Pat, I wanted you to talk more about the pathless path for one. But I'm really recognizing the work is really toward authenticity, and integrity and an A, and a result of that are an extension of that is what we produce in the world. And I don't know the question in there other than just I'm really hearing that in a really profound way, right now.

What do you find, if I may, one of the things that I'm hearing, especially as you say, What am I supposed to do in the world? And I kind of hear a bit of like, Who am I supposed to be as the alternative? Question? And, and I actually, I do remember the, the non path pathless, path moment that you're referring to from? I believe it was your chapters six, when you were talking about you were in a moment of pain, Jerry, and you, I think, approached, Pima should show drawn. And you were reaching out to her and asking her to, like, help you to show you a way. And then she told you about this pathless path? Which, let's see, I think I'm getting, if I was to formulate this into a question it would be, how often do you sort of overtly help people find their calling? And how often do we help them realize it? Sort of once it's manifesting? Is it an outward? Can it be an outward in thing? Or does it have to sort of be inward and then manifest itself outward?

Okay, this a lot. Take it away, Jerry.

Yeah, yeah, yes. Yeah. So so Okay, a couple of things. Um, I think I can tie it all together. So I'm going to attempt to tie everything together with what you would use. In my book I describe at one point in the chapter on it's not called the pathless path. It's called it's the handprints on the canyon wall chapter. But in that chapter, I talked about laying on my back at the bottom of the Grand Canyon, straining, to see shooting stars. And realizing that I needed the only way that I was going to see Shooting Stars was to actually relax my gaze. And that when I relaxed my gaze, and allowed my peripheral vision, otherwise known as the non attached vision, to glance, I could see stars all over. Right. Now, the reason that that comes to mind is I want to go back to a couple of different things. And I think this is the way to navigate the pathless path. Okay. We've been using phrases like, what am I called to do? And we, you know, I was the one who brought in the language of calling right, Bokhari, and the expression is a calling from the divine. I think that the very human tendency, the minute we start to do this work, and we start to ask ourselves questions that I myself have asked clients, what do you call to do? Who are you supposed to be? There's a nasty little inner critic edge to those questions that we have to be very careful about. And it kind of goes like this. What's the matter with you? Why aren't you doing the life you're supposed to do? Aren't you supposed to supposed to suppose to write and viewed from one angle? The, what am I called to do? could possibly reimagine and re envision that old man with a long white beard who's sitting on a throne in heaven who's looking down with a finger saying you are not who I made you to be? Right? Yeah. Okay. It's very punitive. Okay. So we have to be careful around language like that. And then, when we think about the pathless path, right, right, what the first level is, what's my path? What are my steps? What do I have to do? And we live in a society that says, go to school, get good grades, get to a good school, figure out the right career, marry the right person. And, and then milk and honey and cookies for the rest of your life. Except it doesn't work that way. Because that's not like someone gets sick, someone gets COVID undignified, like, What the fuck, excuse my language, what the hell happens, right. And we're shocked because I did everything I was supposed to do follow the path. So we put these two concepts together, be careful about this notion of what the calling means. We think about the path that's been laid out for us. And then we think about this, this realization that the only way to see shooting stars is to relax your grip, your gaze. And we realize that the only way through the pathless path is to relax, the intention, the gaze, the calling all of that we load on to it. And use our peripheral vision. And in this case, peripheral vision happens to be things like integ, integrity, inner and outer alignment. You know, when I was a kid, I actually loved Disney's Pinocchio. And if you remember the Jiminy Cricket character, who a singing song, let your conscience be yours, God. Oh, yeah. Okay. So in a sense, what Jimmy cricket was saying was, you know the answer. We are just so obsessed with wearing a mask and getting it right, and doing the right thing, and ending up with milk and cookies and honey at the end of the whole life, that we don't listen to ourselves.

And so we're stepping out on the pathless path, we are trying to live into the life. And the skill is to go quiet, and listen to ourselves. Because our conscience knows, I trust my inner knowing. It turns out that the act of trusting my inner knowing, outwardly becomes an expression that you all see. And you say, Wow, look at Jerry, he is swimming with sharks and remains himself. Because I trust my inner knowing. That's the only way through on the pathless. path. And Chad, long winded way of answering your last question, which was if you start with that inner connection to your energy Jiminy Cricket, then that stuff that you do on the outside will always be a natural expression of the entertainer. Okay, but if but if you try to focus on getting the right job, then you're staring at the sky saying where's the shooting star? It doesn't work. So

I'm thinking about my own path a little bit over the last few years. And I had such a death grip on what I thought I should do. Like I couldn't even see potential reality in any other thing. So I think source God, universe love came at me with big fat failure. So otherwise, I don't think I would have paid attention or thought, even let myself surrender into some other way. So I guess, and you had your own kind of, you know, I think we have these these mini deaths through our lives that kind of I don't know what to say about it, like they just impact us and make us shed something. So you have that. I think I went through that a few years ago. You do you think that failure or falling is an necessary part of this path of fire of uncovering your calling? Or do you think that you people can do it? freely? Sure, so Jiminy Cricket knows the answer to your question, but I'll say it out loud. We have to be careful not to romanticize pain and suffering and idealize it. And so the short answer your question is no failure is not a necessary step. Okay? The issue is not failure, not failure or failure, no failure, the issue is how you respond to it? How do you respond to the life events that happened? So when you were so fixed on both, like I have my idea, this is the way it's going to be. And Buddhism, let's say that's a detachment. Okay. And the crazy thing is that human beings can become attached to not being attached. I'm going to be so attached. Great. Yeah, you're attached. Right? So, the challenge with that is that you then close yourself off to the spontaneous life events that actually set you on on the direction that you need to be. Again, from my book, I call them asteroid events, right? My partner Allie and I celebrate not our anniversary but our asteroid day. The day we struck each other like asteroids and changed our lives forever. Right.